003: Measuring the sleeping mind – Curzio Vasapollo – Podcast

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We discuss to Curzio Vasapollo in regards to the practicalities and challenges of measuring the sleeping mind utilizing EEG (electroencephalography). We additionally focus on what occurs in a sleep lab vs monitoring your sleep at residence, AI, biotech and masses extra.

Desire to learn? Obtain the total episode transcript right here

Episode Highlights:

• 03:52 Description of ZMax platform
• 04:13 Zmax purposes – analysis, lucid dreaming, neuro-feedback
• 07:47 What’s EEG?
• 12:01 Misconceptions of ‘brain-waves’
• 15:24 What’s a hypnogram?
• 16:58 What’s gentle sleep (N1 sleep)?
• 19:46 N2 sleep, Okay-complexes and sleep spindles
• 22:28 Gradual wave (deep) sleep or N3 sleep
• 26:28 REM detection and lucid dreaming
• 31:15 Why a sleep cycles just isn’t 90 minutes
• 32:33 Contrasting EEG sleep recording at residence and within the sleep lab
• 32:33 The constraints of FitBits and motion based mostly sleep trackers
• 35:04 Challenges of constructing an correct EEG wearable
• 56:14 Turning uncooked EEG information right into a usable hypnogram with AI
• 65:01 Lucid dreaming analysis utilizing ZMax
• 69:05 Detecting sleep apnea with a wearable
• 73:05 the way forward for sleep expertise is in biotech, not {hardware}

Episode Homepage: http://sleepjunkies.com/podcast/measuring-the-sleeping-brain/

This episode’s visitor:

Curzio (Kurt) Vasapollo is the inventor of Zmax, an EEG-based sleep acquisition instrument for monitoring sleep precisely exterior of the sleep lab with purposes for sleep analysis, lucid dreaming and bio/neuro-feedback

Hyperlinks:

Zmax web site – http://hypnodynecorp.com/
ResearchGate – https://www.researchgate.internet/profile/Curzio_Vasapollo

Overview of EEG and sleep (Medscape) – https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1140322-overview
Sleep monitoring information – http://sleepjunkies.com/options/the-ultimate-guide-to-sleep-tracking/

Extra Episodes:

Full Transcript:

[toc]

Jeff: Hello Kurt the way you doing?

Kurt: I’m doing high-quality thanks.

Jeff: I’m going to actually try to choose your brains in the present day. Earlier than we get into the query and reply, I like to present company the chance to what I name an elevator pitch and now I simply talked about you’ve created this platform known as ZMax. Now, in a succinct method, as a result of it’s a really subtle platform that you simply’ve created, are you able to simply give us a really temporary overview what your platform does?

Description of ZMax platform

Kurt: So, ZMax is a sleep acquisition and evaluation system. It consists of each {hardware} and software program. The {hardware} is a snug headband that you simply put in your head earlier than you fall asleep and the software program is a toolset for displaying information, that’s acquired and for analyzing options of sleep.

A number of the purposes of ZMax for exemplar in sleep analysis, sleep researchers throughout Europe use ZMax to seize information from their members of their sleep research.

For instance; the Stockholm College and Karolinska Institute, Radboud College, Netherlands Harrison Institute, in Amsterdam with Dr Van Someron. Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, College of Freiburg, College of Essex, College of Leeds.

One other software that involves thoughts is lucid dreaming. ZMax has stimulation capabilities. So, for those that are curious about lucid dreaming ZMax is probably the most correct EEG based mostly sleep cue supply system that’s accessible.

It’s additionally scriptable, the one other one is biofeedback and neurofeedback. So, for instance; ZMax captures the quantity of oxygen in your blood and your coronary heart fee motion and the muscle stress in your face. So, from this stuff, as you possibly can see on our web site as nicely, you possibly can create rest setups and biofeedback software program.

[05:22] Jeff: Okay, improbable. So, Kurt are you able to inform us a bit about your journey into creating ZMax and the way you got here up with the preliminary concept for the platform and the way you developed ZMax and the place it’s now?

Creating an EEG Wearable

Kurt: Nicely, ZMax began out as a lucid dreaming undertaking and I had tried the Nova Dreamer, this was the primary lucid dreaming {hardware}. However sadly, I misplaced that and likewise it was fairly uncomfortable on the face as a result of it was an precise sleep masks. It coated your face and with any facial twitch it could then tickle or scratch and wake you up.

So, I made a decision to make my very own system and that it could be based mostly on EEG as a result of nicely, the way in which that you simply usually detect lucid dreaming is by taking a look at eye actions and the Nova dreamer was engaging in that with an infrared sensor.

However after I acquired midway by way of, I noticed that truly the willpower of the sleep part which in my case, I assumed I might simply obtain some paper which might clarify to me what sort of algorithm I might use to have a look at. Nevertheless, many seconds of knowledge and determine what sleep state the individual was in.

After I acquired there and I began downloading a bunch of papers from the web and took months to duplicate all of their algorithms; I noticed this stuff don’t work. And about midway by way of I noticed that the problem of figuring out whether or not an individual is within the dream state or not was one thing that wasn’t actually solved to the purpose the place I might simply obtain an algorithm and do it.

So, that began the precise undertaking which is mainly by now I might say, 90% of the trouble went into the info evaluation associated to sleep information, to find out the sleep construction from a sleep recording utilizing the brow EEG channels.

[07:26] Jeff: Okay. So, I wish to transfer on to the following a part of the interview and that is going to be a little bit of an explainer for the listeners, for anybody who’s curious about to the precise science of what goes on within the sleeping mind. So, to begin off with, are you able to simply give us a short overview of what EEG is?

EEG and sleep, an explainer

[07:46] Kurt: So, as you stated, EEG is a way that we use to measure what the mind is doing, by taking a look at very coarse kind {of electrical} exercise that may be measured on the scalp.

Once you sleep, your mind undergoes a number of state transitions and it goes into some states which we have been capable of establish. And every state has some explicit markers as to {the electrical} exercise that it’s producing.

So, we are able to have a look at {the electrical} exercise of the mind and determine as a result of we are able to see these options; that implies that at the moment the mind of the sleeping individual is on this or that individual stage.

Nicely, let me put to you this fashion, the mind has many modules they usually’re all doing various things and as they do one thing complicated like a cognitive job; they’re all doing various things.

The pixel analogy

So, all the impulses all {the electrical} impulses get blended up and the result’s that you simply don’t see very a lot, it’s as in the event you have been attempting to detect the common colour of your TV, you’re not going to see a picture if it was all blurry would simply flip to grey, proper?

What occurs throughout sleep is that every one the pixels all of the pixels try to do the identical factor, which we predict are cleansing up rubbish that acquired collected inside the cells and attempting to prune recollections that aren’t getting used, transferring short-term reminiscence to long-term reminiscence, reminiscence consolidation, all this type of stuff.

So, because it doing that, it’s nearly as in the event you had a TV, the place each pixel is attempting to tackle the identical colour. So, when you measure that exterior the cranium the place all the things is blurred out, you possibly can nonetheless see some issues such as you think about a TV that’s all blurry however each pixel is attempting to show crimson and blue, crimson and blue then you possibly can nonetheless see that exercise.

That’s why sleep EEG is far more attention-grabbing than wake EEG as a result of it’s all blurred out.

And the longer term for EEG, what we actually count on, if we’re going to interface with the human mind, we have to get extra decision. How to try this, it’s an entire totally different you realize ballpark and so far as the dialogue goes; however that’s why throughout method you don’t have very attention-grabbing EEG exercise recorded by EEG.

It’s not that there’s no attention-grabbing exercise, it’s simply that we are able to’t file it. Nicely, that’s all.

[10:02] Jeff: Nice analogy with the pixels.

[10:06] Kurt: And let me inform you one thing else about that, in regards to the pixel analogy. So, whenever you learn these manuals like what we comply with the AASM manual for sleep scoring which tells you in the event you see this factor then it’s this stage. And in the event you see this different function it’s that different sleep stage.

And routinely all through the transition from one state to the following, what you see is each occurring and what I believe is happening there merely, the mind is attempting to synchronize as a result of it’s going to finally find yourself in the identical state however it’s not a pc you realize.

It’s not prefer it’s acquired a central controller that claims, okay, now we change to REM. So, you it’s completely conceivable for one a part of the mind to be in slow-wave sleep and turning into REM sleep earlier than the opposite half.

So, that’s why typically you possibly can see these options name occurring since you may be caching information from totally different neuronal clusters which can be in numerous sleep states. So, primarily your mind just isn’t essentially all the time all on this in the identical sleep State.

Now, after all if this superposition continues for very lengthy then there may be some underlying drawback. And so, that is the sort of stuff that in the event you go to a hospital and you’ve got an EEG with 16 channels and also you’re getting a human to investigate that you simply would possibly uncover and say, oh! Look this this a part of the mind just isn’t even sleeping or no matter.

I don’t find out about that as a result of it’s not even my area however that may be one of many variations between one thing you can take residence and ZMax that’s acquired two channels and for instance; going to a hospital the place they’re going to wire you to demise and also you’re going to have wires throughout your physique as a result of that’s acquired extra channels. However for most individuals, their mind simply follows the identical sleep construction and so, having two channels on the entrance is completely ample.

[11:50] Jeff: Once more, fascinating and I imply, this discuss is an actual training for me. So, we regularly hear about mind waves no, that’s not strictly the easiest way of excited about what EEG is measuring as a result of the EEG is measuring electrical exercise.

False impression about brainwaves

[12:04] Kurt: Now the nice false impression that individuals have, is that there’s such a factor as an alpha wave or a beta wave or a gamma wave. And in the event you go wherever on the web you’ll learn just about the identical stuff which is that alpha is between 10 and 11 Hertz and beta is between 20 and 30 Hertz or one thing like that.

However really, mind exercise just isn’t that deterministic, it’s not like taking a look at some sort of sensor studying from a digital camera or some microphone; which is the entire complexity of making wearable expertise.

I imply, it’s an entire distinction between organic information and in digital information and other people have a tendency to think about EEG by way of digital information so, what frequency – what frequency. However whenever you begin taking a look at it, what I came upon is that, each individual has a distinct vary of frequency and this stuff typically coexist after which there are variations that are recognized however don’t carry any which means.

Then there’s variations which can be recognized and there they’re not regular however they’re benign after which there are different variations that point out some pathology presumably.

And so, it’s an excellent large mess attempting to make sense of all these options and determining what’s happening. So, I suppose the very first thing to know can be the next; in the event you placed on an EEG and also you’re not sleeping, you’re not going to see nearly something out of it.

You may be fortunate in the event you shut your eyes to see some alpha waves, these are ten Hertz oscillations; we predict and there’s plenty of literature on it most of which I don’t even know however we predict that that’s simply the fundamental rhythm of neurons, firing once they don’t have any enter they usually’re not doing one thing helpful.

So, for instance; your visible cortex, the a part of your mind that interprets pictures that sits behind your head which isn’t straightforward to see with ZMax as most individuals have hair there.

However for individuals who don’t have hair in the event you put ZMax on the again, you put on it entrance again. Then instantly whenever you shut your eyes you’d see alpha waves.

I imply, you’re not seeing one thing attention-grabbing you’re seeing the dearth of one thing attention-grabbing all the big quantity of processing that your mind does to get you to see issues and translate pictures to symbols.

That’s not taking place and as a substitute of that, you might have some fundamental firing of the neurons which most probably doesn’t imply very a lot; you all the time must take this with a grain of salt as a result of we don’t know precisely what’s happening in there for probably the most half.

[14:29] Jeff: Primarily, you’re saying it seems like noise.

[14:31] Kurt: Nicely, however the way in which that neurons create noise just isn’t what you’d count on to be noise. like in digital indicators noise means broadband frequency means like Shh, proper? When the mind is noisy or it doesn’t do something helpful, it looks as if it’s acquired this alpha rhythm, which is simply doing that defend it like with this rhythm of 10 Hertz.

However so, that’s why whenever you shut your eyes and also you’re buying sign from the again of your head, which isn’t what you do usually with ZMax often purchase the entrance. However on the again you possibly can instantly see alpha waves now some folks have alpha waves from the entrance as nicely like 87% of the folks do. So, that’s the one factor you possibly can see on EEG whenever you shut your eyes that’s it. Sleep is the attention-grabbing a part of utilizing EEG.

[15:16] Jeff: And also you simply briefly clarify what a hypnogram is we’ve used this time period a few instances.

What’s a hypnogram?

[15:24] Kurt: Typically talking, that the hypnogram is that this wave this blocky wave that you simply might need seen just a few like hypnograms on google and also you’ll see plenty of them and it’s a graphical illustration of the state of the mind all through sleep.

And it’s utilized by researchers as nicely whenever you get a sleep report for instance; in the event you go to a hospital and do a sleep examine. They provide you a hypnogram along with plenty of different metrics.

When you’ve got a hypnogram, let’s say the hypnogram is a sq. wave, that may be a sequence of various epochs. There’s N1 N2 N3 wake and REM. Now we have these 5 totally different states wherein we break down sleep.

When you’ve got a sequence of those markers for instance; wake, wake, wake and N1 & N2 & N3 then over the entire evening that turns into a hypnogram. And in the event you have a look at that, you possibly can already inform lots about what the mind and the physique typically did throughout sleep.

From this hypnogram I’m simply speaking about in the event you have been to take to take a sleep examine in a hospital, they might offer you a sleep report. You’ll be able to Google sleep report after which it can present you samples of what it would seem like.

However on the high they’ve dozens of numbers with codes like whole sleep time TST, REM latency and all of this stuff are drawn immediately from the hypnogram.

[16:49] Jeff: Nice, thanks. Let’s discuss in regards to the totally different sleep levels themselves and we’ll begin off with gentle sleep or N1 sleep.

Stage 1 or N1 (gentle sleep) defined

[17:00] Kurt: Proper. So, in the event you have a look at a hypnogram you’re going to see the primary interval is all the time w it’s all the time awake since you begin from whenever you’re awake. So, that’s uncontroversial that’s simply whenever you’re shifting round attempting to get to sleep maybe, maybe rest room breaks and likewise on the finish of the evening when you get up once more that there’s an enormous block of wake. Then the after wake, the very first thing that occurs is that you simply’re going to gentle sleep or n1 sleep.

And N1 is the just isn’t related to any seen options on the EEG channels, aside from maybe in the event you’re an alpha producer, the alpha waves disappear. And it has the peculiarity that if I wake you out throughout n1 sleep, most individuals will assume I used to be not sleeping; however really, you weren’t absolutely aware.

You might need what are known as hypnagogic, imagery which simply means you’re probably not dreaming however sort of, I don’t know, I suppose drunk on these chemical compounds that your mind is secreting to get you to go to sleep. So, n1 just isn’t thought of to be very restful in any respect however it’s simply an interstitial interval between wake and really doing restorative processing in precise sleep. So, that’s N1.

[18:20] Jeff: Okay. So, on the subject of our present understanding of n1 gentle sleep, what would you say is the function or the operate of N 1?

Does N1 sleep have a operate?

[18:32] Kurt: I don’t assume N1 really has a operate however I’m certain there are many hypotheses on the market; however what it seems to me it’s simply merely a transition part.

As a result of I think about it could be no, organic course of is one rosier like digital proper think about in the event you have been to go to sleep increase and now, you’re making delta waves, can be actually unusual. We don’t produce other issues that work like that, proper?

So, you eat one thing after which after you begin digesting all the things is gradual in biology, proper? So, the transition from wake to sleep is this era known as n1 I don’t assume that it’s acquired a selected operate.

In case you have been to get into evolutionary biology, you would possibly say that you simply’re attempting to see in the event you can really fall asleep and if there’s a predator that comes at you inside 5 minutes you then’re nonetheless awake sufficient to have the ability to reply shortly or one thing like that.

However what it appears to me is that it’s only a transition interval, the place your stage of arousal continues to be too excessive to start creating the options which can be attribute of sleep just like the delta waves and stuff like that.

[19:37] Jeff: Okay. Nice so, that’s n1 gentle sleep. So, what occurs after this part of N2?

Stage 2 (N2) Sleep, Okay-complexes and Sleep Spindles

[19:45] Kurt: After N1, we’ve a face that’s known as N2 sleep and that is when you possibly can start to see two very distinctive options of sleep EEG that are Okay complexes and sleep spindles.

Okay complexes are very straightforward to identify, triangular waves they usually simply occur like bang like that they’re not a steady exercise, they’re spot-like instantaneous exercise.

They usually seem like a zig zag wave after which there’s one other function of N2 sleep which and which additionally happens throughout N3 however it begins on and these are  sleep spindles – quick oscillations that happen typically round 12 Hertz however there’s plenty of particular person variability.

They usually’re imagined to say one thing in regards to the hippocampus speaking along with your neocortex; might need to do with reminiscence consolidation however in notably with forgetting.

As a result of lively forgetting is a crucial a part of reminiscence like in even in AI. In case you’d by no means do prune, you don’t have any detrimental part to studying you simply saturate the system you possibly can study something.

I’ve one good friend the truth is and he’s the one EEG I’ve ever seen that doesn’t have sleep spindles and he has this very bizarre reminiscence, the place he remembers the silliest particulars from twenty years in the past. And he can see the precise phrases and you realize we haven’t studied him or something.

[21:22] Jeff: So, sleep spindles concerned with studying however not studying as we consider it however in forgetting.

[21:29] Kurt: Yeah, you realize the factor is after I say, this stuff I’m telling you my present understanding and the analysis is you realize, every single day there’s new papers popping out. So, there are those who analysis solely sleep spindles that’s all they do for a dwelling for 20 years.

So, I’m certain in the event that they heard that assertion from me, they may say nicely really that’s not utterly correct. To me what they’re, they’re little scribbles that seem on the EEG.

And if I can establish scribble versus non-scribble and mark that’s n2 I’ve already segmented N2 & N3 from all the things else and so that you see how there’s a really totally different angle on this from an information analytics standpoint.

And in the event you have been to get the man that research solely spindle and also you instructed them take a recording and inform me the place the spindles are and write a software program for it, you wouldn’t be capable of try this.

So, it’s very broad it’s very specialised so, I wish to ensure I don’t make statements which can be exterior of my realm of experience.

[22:21] Jeff: Let’s transfer on N2 after which we hit deep sleep slow-wave sleep N3.

Stage 3 (Gradual wave) Sleep (N3)

[22:28] Kurt: So, we hit N3 and right here I’ve to speak about my private grievance with the division between N2 and N3 as a result of it’s one of the crucial unscientific issues about sleep staging. So, mainly, probably the most notable it’s a function of sleep is that you’ve these Delta waves additionally known as gradual waves that’s why they name it gradual wave sleep, proper?

And other people have determined for some motive that when you might have greater than a certain quantity of Delta waves inside one epoch, which bear in mind is an arbitrary 30 second interval; then that’s going to qualify as N3.

The way in which that my algorithm works internally with Zmax, I don’t actually have in N2 & N3; I produce them afterwards to make the researchers completely happy and I hope for the most effective that it’s shut sufficient to what they count on.

Nevertheless it’s a easy continuum which is strictly what you see on {the electrical} exercise. Within the electrical exercise, there’s a easy continuum of enhance in gradual wave manufacturing as you progress from N2 to N3.

If I wish to be extra exact let’s say there are some folks and a few nights wherein all through this steady course of, there’s a degree wherein the manufacturing of delta waves will increase rapidly.

So, on this steady course of there’s a bump you can establish. So, it’s to not say, that there’s no state transition of some kind. However so far as I’m involved that did this willpower of N2 versus + N3 is among the most problematic, it’s the one which adjustments lots relying on who’s scoring and the way a lot consideration they’re paying to totally different human scores on two totally different Apple.

Or in the event that they redo the identical scoring the following week, they are going to give a distinct end result there. One time they are going to say yeah, it’s probably not exceeding the opposite time it can say yeah, I reached it so that you see how error-prone this course of is.

And so because of this I consider N2 and N3 as actually the identical part, however a part wherein there’s a steady enhance in gradual wave exercise.

[24:40] Jeff: That’s actually attention-grabbing, the truth that these states are knots as we would understand them, as deterministic as you say, a tough transition between N2 and N3. So, once more what would you say in regards to the operate of N3 deep sleep.

What are the features of slow-wave sleep?

[25:03] Kurt: Nicely, I believe that’s one thing the place you most likely ought to ask a researcher. I’m probably not I imply, the features, proper? So, it’s being related to all kinds of issues with reminiscence consolidation with restore of the physique then there’s the concept that there’s some metabolic processes within the mind.

So, it’s not only a computing system it’s not only a chip proper as a result of it’s organic. So, these cells are the identical stuff that’s inside all of the cells in your physique they acquired ribosomes, they acquired lysosomes, they produce junk they should eliminate the junk which is a byproduct of the metabolism.

So, not all of the mind is doing is cognitive, some of these items would possibly simply be produced by the mind getting in and eliminating junk substances and breaking them down which could possibly be one thing that doesn’t actually wish to happen similtaneously you’re really utilizing these neurons.

So, however there’s new papers popping out attempting to make sense of what precisely the mind is doing relying on {the electrical} exercise. So, like we used to assume that dreaming solely occurs in REM sleep and now, there are folks saying that truly you possibly can have goals additionally happen throughout slow-wave sleep.

[26:18] Jeff: Okay, that’s a pleasant segue into the following stage of sleep. REM or speedy eye motion sleep.

REM sleep – the actionable part

[26:26] Kurt: Sure. So, REM is definitely for me a very powerful part as a result of it has a part that’s actionable not directly. As a result of as you bear in mind so, this began as a lucid dreaming undertaking and so, in a short time lucid dreaming is a state of consciousness wherein your mind is asleep however you possibly can nonetheless be aware inside the dream besides you don’t have any enter so, the mind is producing all the things that you simply really feel and see.

And lucid dreaming is a really unstable, very fragile state of consciousness wherein you’re capable of bear in mind or discover that you simply’re in a dream whilst you’re in a dream. And the issue there’s that as a result of your mind is mainly already sort of absolutely working at that time, it doesn’t actually like to remain asleep so, one of many large challenges in lucid dreaming just isn’t so, a lot to lucid dream however to keep away from waking up as a result of folks get excited.

So, anyway the thought is that you simply wait till REM sleep and the way in which you try this. is by taking a look at a motion. So, the one a part of the ZMax system that’s working. The most effective that I’m actually happy about is the REM detection which works in real-time in contrast to the hypnogram manufacturing which is works offline you file the evening after which after it produces the hypnogram.

However the REM detection is completed reside and it’s completed by wanting on the peculiar options of REM sleep, that are eye actions.

Now, I don’t understand how a lot intimately need me to enter it however the issue is that truly sleep has plenty of issues that occur they seem like eye actions. So, getting the actual eye actions versus the faux eye motion that’s the place all the issue is. However mainly, in REM sleep, you’re eradicating your actual physique eyes in the identical method that you simply’re shifting your dream eyes.

And so, you possibly can have a look at a motion change produce a really robust electrical oscillation or just like the EEG and say, oh! Okay, I see now the blokes shifting the eyes and he doesn’t appear to be awake and there’s no motion and this and that. So, that’s the REM sleep part.

[28:29] Jeff: Okay and what in regards to the traits of REM whenever you’re wanting on the EG?

What are the traits of REM?

[28:36] Kurt: So, in REM sleep, you don’t have alpha, you don’t have spindles, you don’t have Okay complexes and also you don’t have slow-wave sleep, you don’t have gradual waves or delta waves.

All you might have is a fairly flat electrical exercise with some theta exercise which in any case is current all the way in which all through the recording however it’s very seen in rem as a result of there’s nearly nothing else and you’ve got eye actions.

The attention motion exercise may be very evident on the EEG sign, regardless that it’s captured on the brow. In case you go and do that in a lab with all of the electrodes what they do is that they put some electrodes in your brow and a few of them close to your eye and those close to the eyes they name it EOG for electrooculography however factor is it’s all superimposed see so even the EOG channels get a bit little bit of EEG and the EEG actually will get an entire lot of EOG.

Separating EEG and EOG with software program

So, what I do with ZMax is I’m ready to make use of software program to separate the 2 and to establish the EOG’s which can be superimposed on the EEG s. And by doing that, I can get away with simply having a easy headband with out having further wires or telling you to attach issues close to your eyes. So, mainly all you see is information exercise with eye actions.

You additionally see another issues bear in mind the ZMax is multi-sensor so, the distinction between eye motion…REM and eye actions in wake. For instance, is that, throughout REM you’re not shifting round. The attention actions are also very rounded on the ideas in comparison with eye motion so, you possibly can see throughout REM that’s most likely as a result of the paralysis of the physique that occurs all through REM sleep just isn’t full.

So, it doesn’t have an effect on the eyes however it’s additionally not zero on the eyes so; the attention actions in sleep are extra subdued than then throughout wake. And also you additionally see some bursts of EMG exercise which is a electromyography, it’s simply the facial twitches you typically have small twitches given. In case you have a look at a pet whereas they’re sleeping typically see they’ve small actions of the paws over there on the face.

[30:49] Jeff: Yeah. Okay, good so, for anybody who’s unaware, we’ve simply described these totally different states, these totally different levels of sleep. And through the evening we are going to cycle by way of these within the order that we’ve simply described them; and I consider it’s round 90 minutes for the common size of a sleep cycle and we’ll get 5 or 6 totally different sleep cycles through the evening.

Why a sleep cycle just isn’t 90 minutes

[31:16] Kurt: So, this different concept that you’ve all of those sleep cycles and there are six sleep cycles all through the evening or 5 sleep cycles. So, initially it relies upon how lengthy you sleep the extra you sleep you’re going to have extra cycles clearly. Second factor it relies upon how nicely you sleep as a result of when you’ve got an awakening the cycle is interrupted.

And it’s acquired to start once more and so, what I typically see in a recording is that it’s not possible to find out what number of cycles there have been. Merely, as a result of there’s no clear option to decide what’s a cycle so let’s say you go N1 & N2 & N3 you then get up you then return N1, N2, N3. How lengthy is that? I don’t know. It may be 2/3 of the scale of the common sleep cycle after which you might have a full one later, do you name that one, we name it 2/3? It’s not clear.

So, we simply name a cycle, if you weren’t disrupted in your sleep then the sequence of going from N 1 2 & 3 after which again to n1 and REM we’d known as it a cycle in observe although it’s lots more durable than then studying stuff on the web might need you consider as a result of there’s disturbances and the mind jumps backwards and forwards.

It’s additionally indicative of some sorts of issues in the event you can not keep in slowly sleep, such as you would possibly see any person that goes in a single and two and three after which and two and three after which two after which one and it you possibly can see that it’s not steady.

So, that’s the case wherein you must really go and go to a sleep lab and check out to determine what’s happening; however it’s one thing that may be revealed simply with ZMax in the event you attempt for an evening.

[32:48] Jeff: Okay, good thanks Kurt, that leads properly on to what I wish to discuss subsequent. So, we’ve mentioned the totally different sleep levels and their traits. Now, I simply wish to discuss a bit bit about really what occurs in the event you have been to guide your self in for a sleep examine, in the event you went to a sleep lab, a sleep clinic and also you have been to endure a full medical grade sleep examine, also referred to as a PSG polysomnogram. And likewise talked a bit bit about some great benefits of going to a sleep clinic but in addition a number of the disadvantages to attempt to monitor sleep in these circumstances.

Sleep lab vs residence EEG monitoring

[33:32] Kurt: Proper. Nicely, the sleep lab check is much more complete as a result of as all these channels, not solely does it have typically sixteen, typically whilst excessive as 256, which suggests your head is actually coated by electrodes seem like some Borg Queen kind creature.

However as you possibly can think about it’s very inconvenient however it’s not simply that you then get the heart beat oximeter on the finger so, you bought stuff tied to your fingertip with tape and also you’ve acquired stuff throughout your chest which measures the respiratory effort.

And you then’ve acquired a factor caught in your nostril as nicely known as a cannula and it measures your respiration. As you possibly can think about that is very correct in the way it measures issues. The issue with checks within the sleep lab is that you simply’re a sleeping in an unfamiliar atmosphere and be you’ve acquired all of those contraptions hooked to your physique. So, what are you actually measuring?

You’re measuring a really disturbed sleep now as a result of that is acknowledged what they do is often like in a examine, they are going to have three nights and the primary one they name it the habituation evening. However I believe it’s a bit bit preposterous you can have bitch fee to sleeping like that in a day, with these sorts of factor.

[34:48] Jeff: Nicely, instinctively it is smart new environments we’re not going to sleep meeting and is restful as we’re in our mattress and I consider there’s loads of analysis to again this as much as.

[35:00] Kurt: Nicely, there’s this tactile sensation of stuff adhering to your physique which is it’s very unfamiliar then it restricts your capability to show round as a result of you possibly can really feel there’s one thing.

So, with ZMax, you solely have two electrodes and you continue to have plenty of the opposite sensors just like the motion sensor, you might have the heartrate as a substitute of utilizing a finger sensor, it’s detecting it immediately out of your brow.

There’s a respiration sensor that’s exterior and you should utilize it if you wish to seize your SPO2 stage and your respiration and sure, that additionally must be caught within the nostril as nicely however it’s non-compulsory.

However for figuring out the sleep construction that’s not you realize, we’ve to find out as a result of sleep research, they do them for analyzing respiration issues and sleeping issues that produce other causes, proper?

So, in the event you’re speaking about respiration its very totally different story however mainly with ZMax that the rationale you possibly can stage sleep even with solely two channels; is that the mind just isn’t actually often doing various things in numerous areas at totally different instances like there may be a discrepancy of at most 30 seconds for when the actual piece of the mind enters a particular stage.

Nevertheless it doesn’t actually matter, the one problem is that whenever you solely have two electrodes you bought to ensure they don’t fall off. So, when folks attempt it usually the primary time they don’t perceive learn how to placed on the scarf, they should attempt it a pair instances.

Then I give them just a few ideas now, I’ve acquired a video on YouTube that reveals them how precisely to place it on after which as soon as they resolve that drawback, it’s mainly nearly as good as having 16 electrodes.

For wholesome topic that we’ve to underscore that the ZMax is a instrument for wholesome topics to find out the sleep construction and naturally in the event you’re not a wholesome topic however you didn’t know you would possibly discover out this fashion. Nevertheless it’s not a system that may analyze the patterns of individuals which can be very irregular, mind physiology or electroencephalography throughout sleep.

So, I suppose these two distinctions are necessary between learning sleep construction versus examine respiration is one after which learning a wholesome topic versus learning any person that has some acknowledged pathologies is one other distinction.

The primary profit with ZMax is that it’s easy, you to scrape the pores and skin, you don’t want to use gel or glue to your face, you don’t must go to a sleep lab, you don’t must plan whenever you’re going to mattress.

Like if any person tells me okay now and we’re prepared go to mattress there’s no method I can fall asleep, proper? So, some folks can’t even do the PSG as a result of, they simply gained’t go to sleep. This you simply put it on and you then fall asleep everytime you really feel prefer it doesn’t require preparation and it’s it’s nonetheless one thing that it is advisable placed on the top.

So, it’s not as comfy as having nothing in any respect, it’s not as comfy as like a wristband or one thing. However the compromise between how a lot accuracy you get within the EEG information and the sleep construction, versus how little discomfort it really provides you as a result of only one piece it doesn’t have all of the wires.

In actual fact, you realize, the researchers requested me on a regular basis why don’t you add EMG, why aren’t you at EOG, why? I’m like no, I’m not going so as to add something if I begin any stuff, we get what you have already got after which after which no person desires to place it on anymore. So, it’s acquired that profit that it’s straightforward to placed on and also you’re measuring your precise sleep in your house.

[38:34] Jeff: Okay. So, I needed to ask the query, your product may be very a lot an EG product; however we see plenty of different merchandise which can be devoted in direction of and this concept of measuring or quantifying sleep. So, what are your views on services and products which can be attempting to do that with out utilizing EEG?

Are you able to measure sleep levels with out EEG?

[38:55] Kurt: Oh it’s hopeless. If it was for me, if I had an precise want to determine what’s happening with my sleep and the one possibility was to go to a sleep lab or purchase a wristband or one thing like that or an app, I’ll go to the sleep lab.

I imply, I’ve regarded in very shut element at lots of and lots of of recordings and bear in mind my ZMax is multi sensor so, what which means is that I don’t simply have the EEG.

Proper under the EEG on every particular person display, I’ve the accelerometer monitor which reveals me the motion after which I’ve the PPG, which is an optical method of measuring the heartbeats. So, I’ve the guts fee under that as nicely. And whereas on the mixture, in the event you have been to take lots of of those there’s sure, it’s true that there’s extra coronary heart fee variability throughout REM sleep than not.

And sure, it’s true you might have the next coronary heart fee throughout awake I might by no means be capable of simply use motion and coronary heart fee to create a hypnogram for a single individual after which present it to them within the morning and inform them it’s proper. That’s simply not doable for my part.

It’s not all the time the case that the shopper goes to make a buying resolution based mostly on accuracy, it’s typically it’s a buying resolution that it’s based mostly on novelty and a few individuals are early adopters, they like expertise they usually need one thing that’s technological however it’s additionally easy to make use of.

So, a wristband doesn’t require you to do something, one thing you set in your head is already a bit bit extra of a dedication.

[40:25] Jeff: Yeah, you’re proper. I believe lots of people get into sleep expertise as a result of they’re early adopters and since they wish to discover out about their sleep. However as you say the issue is there’s no option to validate the info from a few of these new extra superior sleep wearables which can be popping out.

Client sleep expertise and uncooked information

[40:50] Kurt: Nicely, I believe the issue is that the common shopper doesn’t know learn how to interpret uncooked information so, they’re not requiring the uncooked information and since they don’t require it’s not there and since it’s not there you possibly can declare simply completely something. That’s it in a nutshell. You understand having one thing peer-reviewed, I don’t know what to say. There’s just one check if one thing works or not that’s not a examine made on any person else with information that you simply couldn’t see it’s you are taking it go to mattress.

Put on it, get the uncooked information within the morning, test that the willpower of the sleep phases corresponds to what you see within the EEG. And by the way in which test if the EEG has any options on it or if it’s simply noise or what it’s, in the event you don’t do that you simply simply no no simply the rep.

[41:40] Jeff: So, what would you say about issues like Moore’s legislation, about computing energy, about miniaturization and about cramming increasingly expertise into these new devices which can be developing and likewise layering, machine studying and predictive analytics. Would you say that there’s ever going to be a state of affairs the place we’ll be capable of monitor sleep with out monitoring the sleeping mind?

Can AI assist with sleep staging algorithms?

[42:09] Kurt: The factor with the attention, it’s solely capable of get well patterns that have been captured. So, take the human visible cortex that’s the most effective a part of our mind and the mind is probably the most clever a part of the universe. So, in the event you have a look at the visible cortex as a result of there are some issues in people that basically aren’t very good.

Such as you breathe discuss and eat from the identical gap, that’s not very clever design however there are some issues which can be actually optimized just like the visible cortex. And I believe that’s as a result of we’re monkeys, we want it to have actually good 3d imaginative and prescient to navigate the bushes and so forth and so forth, however take that for example.

You can not have a look at an image with simply static and make issues out of it as a result of there’s no sign within the picture.

So, the issue with the excitement phrases and with the AI is that AI has been capable of do lots that we beforehand thought you can’t do like profitable at purpose, profitable a chess of driving vehicles. However the issue with the info nonetheless stays that there’s nonetheless the outdated saying what’s it rubbish in rubbish out.

So, in the event you don’t have the factor that you simply’re attempting to detect within the information, there isn’t any quantity of intelligence not even a futuristic tremendous clever the scale of a planet can go in and offer you information that’s simply not there. So, you’ll by no means get away from the necessity to purchase the sign earlier than you go and course of it.

So, I believe we’re speaking about accelerometer information and in coronary heart fee information, proper? Now, if there’s one thing new that we don’t know, like for instance there’s a Fibonacci sequence encoded in each you realize, wake to N1 transition within the coronary heart fee that we by no means actually discovered as a result of we’re too dumb, then okay, perhaps in that case however you realize, as a result of it’s organic sign. I doubt that this I can superior some sort of slam-dunk factor that we are able to seize, that we beforehand missed.

[43:53] Jeff: Okay so, to try to summarize what you’re saying is the sleep lab check, may be very complete one and certainly it’s the one option to do thorough medical diagnostic testing for sleep issues. Nevertheless, there are many drawbacks, you want a great deal of tools you’re sleeping in an unfamiliar atmosphere which suggests the sleep that’s recorded, isn’t essentially the way you’re sleeping at residence.

You want skilled professionals working the tools, it is advisable connect a lot of sensors to the physique. Nevertheless, the opposite possibility is sleep monitoring shopper expertise which you’re saying doesn’t match up by way of accuracy. So, with ZMax, you’ve tried to bridge this hole and convey medical grade EEG information right into a wearable, that you should utilize at residence.

So, that appears like an enormous problem. So, are you able to clarify a few of these challenges that you simply’ve confronted in enterprise this this undertaking?

The challenges of constructing a wearable EEG sleep monitor

[45:01] Kurt: Nicely, with the house system, it actually relies upon what sort of residence system you’re designing. I began from the belief that as a result of I’m very delicate to something that occurs throughout sleep together with what I’ve on my head so, if it’s too large I’m not even going to put on it then if I don’t put on who’s going to put on it.

I imply it needs to be comfy, to not be comfy one of many issues that I found is that dimension issues lots since you typically sleep in your aspect and typically for instance I sleep on my aspect with my face in opposition to the mattress or the pillow.

And so, the scale of the factor if it’s going to restrict the actions and restrict the sleeping place so, you possibly can assume or all through the evening you’re shifting round and also you hear this factor otherwise you really feel it urgent in opposition to your head, that’s not good.

So, the width is a very powerful dimension and the thickness as nicely. I made it so, that my nostril goes to bump in opposition to issues earlier than the system bumps in opposition to issues. Once you’re attempting to make it this small all of the engineering challenges associated to any digital system, particularly analog circuitry turn out to be one million instances harder.

For instance; the battery so, as a result of it’s small and a lot of the house in any shopper system, is occupied by the battery and the battery itself is a most capability is restricted by the ability density. And we simply you realize, the expertise that we’ve in the present day is we’ve these lithium polymer batteries they’ve the best power density aside from utilizing nuclear which most likely not be very good.

[46:49] Kurt: However I don’t assume many individuals would wish to go for that resolution no, as a result of you then would have a fluorescent brow in there or preserve you up. However the power density restrict is an actual drawback, there’s so many individuals now a lot well-funded analysis in attempting to make batteries with increased density as a result of they’re actually being the restrict of the miniaturization of gadgets.

And so, within the case of Zmax it’s the identical method and when you might have the battery occupying a lot of the house, however nonetheless it’s that small so, the battery doesn’t have a lot juice to function on. And so what are you able to do nicely for instance; you can’t transmit information wirelessly, which is what plenty of devices do?

However the issue is that this that they attempt to do processing on a single chip on the system as a result of processing is affordable in power phrases. However for instance; radio transmission is sort of costly so Z- max I needed it to be a real-time system as a result of I additionally need it to be lucid dreaming system. So, it has to have the ability to talk with the PC which by the way in which is fantastic, as a result of now you’re not restricted by the ability of the small microcontrollers on the system as to what sort of processing you are able to do.

You’ll be able to have your entire PC do the processing and simply use the Z max as an information assortment instrument and a stimulator. In case your PC just isn’t sufficient you possibly can join it to the cloud it’s not an issue so, that’s very handy.

Designing a {custom} wi-fi protocol

However when the battery is so small for instance; I couldn’t use Bluetooth as a result of Bluetooth is just too power intensive and a few folks have been unhappy – what about low-energy Bluetooth.

They actually messed it up – as a result of then what they did is that they imposed a max and most information bandwidth. So, you might have the conventional Bluetooth, which is unbearably power intensive and the battery wouldn’t even final the entire evening.

Then you might have the Bluetooth Low Power factor which limits the info fee and so, I wouldn’t be capable of stream the uncooked information. So, in the long run I needed to make my very own radio circuitry and my very own radio protocol and my very own radio all the things, which is it’s like creating a brand new Bluetooth from scratch however I needed to do it.

And there’s one other drawback with the radio, that’s which is particular to sleep and that’s that whenever you’re utilizing a wi-fi mouse or a wi-fi distant or something, you possibly can level it in direction of the receiver, proper? However whenever you’re sleeping, you possibly can inform the individual hey sleep oriented in direction of the receiver, they’re not going to try this. They could sleep dealing with left or dealing with proper.

The receiver is often the PC which is sitting on a horizontal airplane on one aspect of the individual so, now in the event that they’re dealing with in direction of the pc excellent sign, dealing with away now, you bought an issue it’s not solely dealing with away. It’s bouncing in opposition to the wall which creates a really fast refraction so, the sign is transmitted twice with some very small interval, which kills the sign.

And on the opposite aspect, you might have the top which is usually water which is an excellent method of insulating in opposition to wi-fi frequencies water. And so it’s the worst attainable case for information transmission is a head worn system. So, the technical problem is to get one thing that may transmit sign reliably from the mattress, whatever the place.

And with that little battery that I’ve in it you realize simply due to the scale, if I couldn’t make it as large as a brick all of this wouldn’t not have been an issue, simply use an enormous battery use Bluetooth. And I can go into all the totally different key components of the system and it’s simply the identical factor that making, it small creates engineering difficulties.

[50:32] Jeff: So, that’s only one small facet which you’ve described in a form of nightmarish difficult. Getting the wi-fi working however the hub of it the crux of it’s really measuring {the electrical}.

Measuring EEG is the straightforward half…

[50:48] Kurt: I believe that truly that’s as a result of that’s the principle function proper however really measuring EEG itself just isn’t that tough prefer it’s a it’s a decades-old expertise. When it turns into onerous is when you must do it so small and when you must do it in a method that doesn’t have the cables.

So, making it small means I can not purchase an EEG amplifier, I’ve to create it from scratch so made out of particular person amplifiers and little resistors and there’s like 20-30 parts simply to construct an EEG. However not less than, they’re sufficiently small and they are often positioned nicely sufficient that I could make it sufficiently small.

[51:28] Kurt: So, we talked earlier than that you simply needed to undergo several types of compounds for the contacts and the adhesives exploring what labored finest.

Selecting electrode supplies

[51:41] Jeff: Nicely, there’s they’re a bunch of supplies in the present day, which can be capable of seize sign however not nicely sufficient so, that then you may make sense of it like conductive textiles which all the gizmos you can purchase on-line.

They work based mostly on conductive textual content so as a result of it seems cool. It seems like there’s nothing to switch and enter dry electrodes and sadly, they’re very unhealthy for sign acquisition.

There are devices available on the market which can be so naive they simply have metallic surfaces that immediately are available in contact with the pores and skin, are those utilizing conductive rubber. So, I spent six months doing solely that simply researching the electrode materials.

You bought dozens and dozens of various conductive textiles from those which can be utilizing for EMI insulation, which is what they’re all used for in any other case they wouldn’t be out there, to custom-making Gold ones, to those that they use in nuclear crops for insulation in opposition to radiation.

Like nicely, I had a guide letter despatched by an organization with like 30 differing kinds I nonetheless have the images after which the conductive rubber that wasn’t adequate. So, there was an organization that made aerospace purposes and so, they’d this different conductive rubber which wasn’t stretchy in any respect so, for that was unhealthy however it had a really excessive silver part to be extra conductive.

So, tried that as nicely however they have been all very unhealthy till lastly attempting several types of gels, I settled for a gel electrode and that is the one one that offers me a sign that’s adequate to work. Now, that is the deciding issue see that is the deciding level the place, in the event you have been an enormous firm and also you’ve acquired 40 million bucks invested in you and also you’ve acquired a board of administrators and other people wanting RI.

I couldn’t inform them you realize, we’re going to make use of the gel electrodes as a result of the sign is sweet. As a result of then they’re going to say no, nicely how many individuals are going to purchase it then? We wish one thing that appears cool so, we placed on Kickstarter and all these individuals are going to get it as a result of it seems cool after which it’s you realize, $179 is just too low cost to return it. You see how the incentives listed here are totally different and that’s why I used to be capable of make.

[53:49] Jeff: Okay. So, we’ve acquired getting the wi-fi to work, we’ve acquired getting the sensors to work, how in regards to the on the software program aspect of issues? As you stated typically, your sort of simply staring to the matrix and it’s onerous to….

Decoding the info – staring into the matrix

[54:08] Kurt: However you’re looking at an incomprehensible mess of a matrix contaminated by sweat draw artifacts, blinking artifacts, motion artifacts, electrodes coming off artifacts. Some stuff we have been by no means capable of finally establish.

Jeff: Simply describe to a few of these kinds of challenges the place you’re taking a look at is simply seems like noise and also you stated there’s construction in that noise you’ve acquired to extract a sign inside.

[54:48] Kurt: So, after I acquired completed with the {hardware}, I assumed okay, I’m completed. Now, I simply did the sleep staging and eventually I get to market, this was 5 years in the past. After which in these 5 years really needed to develop me my sons boastful if I say, I needed to develop the science to write down the software program. However that’s just about what it’s just because this…

Okay, I’m not going to make a declare, let’s state information. In case you fall asleep heart a sleep lab the place sleep scientists are analyzing sleep and also you ask them how do you translate the recording you might have in a hypnogram? They pay any person to do it, how a lot do they pay him? $2 $5 $10 no, typically it’s 100 {dollars}.

So, it’s not an affordable course of think about a examine with lots of of members, that’s tens of 1000’s of {dollars} paid to those folks. So, there’s a particular job, the sleep technician which their job is to place the electrodes on the affected person and to provide the hypnogram. They have a look at the info they usually once they provide the hypnogram.

Designing an computerized sleep scoring algorithm

Which means there’s no algorithm available on the market which dependable and reliably, you possibly can pay and you may feed it into a pc and it may inform you that is this stage that is that stage, that is that stage.

There are some corporations that declare to do it they usually cost you simply as a lot because the technician and I used to be capable of dig deep sufficient to determine that truly it’s not absolutely computerized. There’s a man there after which the algorithm does half of it and the man does the opposite half, that’s why it’s nonetheless costly.

[56:08] Jeff: So, what you’re speaking about is taking uncooked information as such whether or not it’s from Z max or from some other.

[56:17] Kurt: Precisely that conversion is a really nasty information evaluation drawback. And so far as I can nonetheless see as much as at the present time not solely has it not been solved however individuals are wanting the flawed method and making the flawed assumption so, they’re not going to resolve it anytime quickly. No, matter how a lot they throw out the issue, I can provide the buzzwords and going to excruciating element however I would like.

So, I actually went in actually deep into attempting to make this transition as a result of the uncooked information doesn’t do any good, what you wish to see is the levels, proper? So, challenges associated to that; I believe the primary problem is the variability between folks which even within the scientific literature and no person’s discussing so far as I can see.

A nasty, information evaluation drawback

Once you learn this stuff very naively on the web say, okay alpha is 10 Hertz and beta is that’s 20 Hertz and no matter and that’s simply nonsense. It’s not a digital sign. And there are actually onerous instances like for instance; the sleep spindles are imagined to be at 12 Hertz and the Alpha is at 10 Hertz and that offers you a very nice clear method of segmenting wake from gradual wave sleep.

Nevertheless, many individuals have alpha and spindles which can be partly or absolutely overlapped and whenever you get these issues and also you feed that sort of affected person’s information into a few of these algorithms which can be utilized by, I don’t know the Zeo?

For instance Zeo used to make use of one thing like this a naive kind of bandpass filtering, the place they might simply have a look at the magnitude of the exercise on this frequency band versus their different frequency band after which make a comparability and a willpower based mostly on that.

That yields not simply lack of accuracy however a disaster; as in your entire gradual wave sleep turns into  wake. So, the variability a and the overlap of the frequency creates a necessity for going into the sign and initially determining what kind of mind is that this. In case you don’t do that first then there’s no method you possibly can rating.

I imply you’re going to get a pleasant lead to 20% of the folks so noticed within the different 30% after which for 50% goes to be a catastrophe. And for this reason corporations don’t usually present you the uncooked information as a result of in the event that they did, you’d notice half of the folks it’s only a catastrophe in its spouting nonsense.

And so, to get that to work reliably on 99% of the folks, meant that I needed to discover a option to decide from the info initially; what is basically alpha and the place is it and the place is the spindles and the place are they and the place’s the info and which of them are the attention actions? And it’s like a puzzle so, it was robust to say the least.

[58:55] Jeff: Okay. So, it’s very clear that it’s an enormous puzzle, is a large complicated drawback attempting to decipher what’s happening within the mind, whereas we’re asleep. So, can we return to a subject we touched on a bit earlier and these buzzwords we hear on a regular basis synthetic intelligence and machine studying. So, how did that match into the design and the event of ZMax?

AI just isn’t good sufficient but

[59:24] Kurt: Nicely, lots of people which can be utilizing AI to do stuff, they’ve big datasets. Like for instance; the imaginative and prescient information set for it self-driving vehicles is large and since AI continues to be fairly silly, it may appear good however the motive it appears good is as a result of it’s acquired one superhuman school and that’s to make use of plenty of sensory information. So, it’s probably not a mind but, what it’s it’s like a primary layer of your visible cortex by way of lack of intelligence.

It’s actually nonetheless very silly, you are able to do improbable issues as a result of it seems that when you’ve got even a primitive sensing layer however you give it an unbelievable quantity of knowledge. Like consider all the photographs on Google Photographs after which in the event you seek for field it can really return you the picture of a field; however they’ve a database that’s so large and although that can also be marked as a result of I’ve the key phrases.

And that’s perhaps not excellent marking however then there’s really excellent marking there’s datasets of thousands and thousands of pictures you possibly can bootstrap from. With sleep you might need plenty of recordings they usually might need a division into epochs however they’re not annotated which means that nobody has an information set of 1 million sleep recordings.

The place each sleep spindle is marked starting to finish each sweat artefact is marked starting to finish, we don’t have that. So, they’re making use of the identical stuff that works on huge information units and attempting to use it on very restricted information units that aren’t even annotated. I don’t understand how in-depth you need me to go together with this however I simply stated a dialogue with any person who raised his hand whereas I used to be given a speech and I used to be saying the AI on sleep nonetheless doesn’t work.

And he stated,” I did my PhD thesis utilizing convolutional neural networks that are proper now you realize, super-hot subjects CNN’s. After which he stated, okay no, drawback I replicated his code as a result of he’s acquired it on GitHub and I ran my recordings by way of it and identical to I instructed him all yielded is a catastrophe. It’s to not diss the blokes for a sensible man recognize what he’s doing I believe it’s helpful to try this however then after we checked out it, we came upon the trigger.

And the trigger is that they’re nonetheless wanting their classifiers they usually’re taking a look at every epoch individually so, they don’t know the sleep construction. They don’t know what the sleep construction is so, an alpha at 12 Hertz and a spindle at 12 Hertz they’re going to seem like the identical factor to it so, after all it’s going to get confused. Think about, if I inform you categorize women and men however now, I begin placing girls’s faces on males, it’s going to throw you off proper.

So, it’s simply being blind as to what the algorithm is doing is an issue with eye, proper? Once you whenever you use most of those sample recognizers, one of many issues is you don’t know the place it’s doing since you practice the neural internet after which there’s these different researches happening to attempting to do the reverse course of.

[01:02:18] Jeff: So, if we don’t know what’s happening how will we go about coaching a neural community to determine what’s happening within the EEG?

[01:02:28] Kurt: Nicely, you possibly can practice it on the options after which you possibly can practice it theoretically could be completed, you simply want a lot better than a greater information units and also you want plenty of them. As a result of the recognizer in AI doesn’t must know what it’s taking a look at all it’s doing is taking a look at.

Options are represented as partitions in a really excessive dimensional house like factors and in the event you can simply determine what factors belongs to the place, it’s completed.

The query is, how are you going to educate it the place they’re? And the great issues about AI is that it may study implicitly from examples, that’s you don’t want you don’t must create an algorithm for it to say, okay now that is what the spindle seems like.

I imply it will get actually technical however I believe it is going to be completed finally, it simply it’s not there but and to get it to work that method, it nonetheless requires the identical quantity of labor or perhaps worse however it’s far more boring work the place you would need to annotate thousands and thousands of information.

So, and who is aware of you realize, analysis goes quick perhaps tomorrow we get an algorithm that does all the things I’m saying can’t be completed. However my query is the info in there as a result of I’m certain one factor in the event you didn’t seize the info then it doesn’t matter what AI you utilize, it’s not going to have the ability to create it out of skinny air to match your expectations.

[01:03:44] Jeff: There are big large datasets on the market. Proper now, I discuss to CEOs of huge corporations they’ve acquired thousands and thousands of tens of thousands and thousands of nights of knowledge sleep information however as you say, it’s not annotated.

[01:03:56] Kurt: So, it’s like having I don’t know thousands and thousands of images however there’s nothing written on it. So, yeah, I imply at some stage you would possibly be capable of uncover relationships. I believe there’s one thing it will get right into a a lot subtler dialog; if you are able to do computerized extraction of issues which can be comparable however the level is, you additionally wish to break that down into epochs and the epochs bear in mind are a conference, they’re sort of synthetic.

So, in the event you let the AI determine what goes with what, it would provide you with one thing that appears utterly totally different from sleep staging. Nevertheless it may be extra attention-grabbing and extra correct so we should always use that if it does if it does try this.

[01:04:32] Jeff: Superior. We might keep it up that dialog longer however we’ve to maneuver. So, Kurt I simply briefly particular purposes about one thing like ZMax. I imply, we’ve talked about it initially got here from this concept of lucid dreaming, are you able to discuss you realize the broad vary of purposes?

Zmax purposes – lucid dreaming

[01:04:55] Kurt: On the broadest stage for shoppers that aren’t sleep technicians or sleep researchers, one of many coolest factor that you are able to do with ZMax is lucid dreaming.

I assure you that the opposite issues that they’re promoting for reasonable on eBay don’t work they usually’re not scriptable ZMax is verifiably detecting REM sleep, it’s utilized by lucid dreaming researchers as a result of it’s capable of really set off accuse throughout REM sleep and solely REM sleep and it may present you precisely the stimulation factors within the morning.

And you’ll script it utilizing JavaScript, you possibly can determine okay if we’re in a REM epoch then play however play me again the sound or do that colour stimulation or do no matter it is advisable do in your lucid dreaming experiment or protocol. So, you should utilize it for that, that’s probably the most, I might say most readily packaged factor you can simply purchase in and get an instantaneous profit.

Then if you wish to study extra about sleep, it’s an incredible academic instrument as a result of you realize for you you’ve acquired a blood stress meter, you will get this on the grocery store these days. A scale to your weight in a mirror to see what you seem like.

Sleep is essential organic operate for which individuals aren’t actually capable of exit and purchase one thing that works like a scale it tells me present it to me what occurred.

And typically you possibly can uncover very attention-grabbing issues out of this like I bear in mind one of the crucial well-known of the researchers that I might that I’m working with, that he was he began to make use of ZMax as an early adopter 2 years in the past whereas I used to be nonetheless in improvement. However we put it on him and we found that he had loud night breathing and sleep apnea and he didn’t know and he’s asleep researcher, proper?

And I used to be capable of present him look right here respiration interruption increase right here desaturation taking place 287 causes a place change and it disrupts the sleep. So, now we’re going to do experiments for him and what we’re going to experiment on is the next because it’s additionally stimulation instrument proper so, we’re going to take this since he’s the one confirmed sleep apnea affected person that I do know of.

So, we’re going to do a real-time sleep apnea detection and when he stops respiration there’s a delay of about 15 seconds between stopping respiration and the blood oxygen taking place to harmful ranges which then causes a sensation of choking and causes him to vary place or get up.

So, we’re going to detect the interruption in respiration and provides a vibratory stimulation instantly so, that he’s capable of flip round or anyway come again to a much less deep sleep stage with out waking up; and with out having to have the apnea we’re going to experiment how that works.

So, you see that on the entire as a platform the place you possibly can attempt various things, it has a usefulness that maybe goes a bit bit past simply capturing information.

Biofeedback, neurofeedback, sleep and rest

One other utterly totally different vertical is biofeedback, neurofeedback and customarily biofeedback is the method by which, you are taking some information you purchase from the physique and switch that into one thing you can both see or hear typically.

And so, for instance you will get a measure of your motion and play sound based mostly in your motion or you are able to do with the respiration or along with your mind exercise and since ZMax streams all of those information channels in actual time with very low latency.

You’re capable of feed them into some software program that may translate this stuff into sounds and what that lets you do, is study to manage your coronary heart fee for instance; your respiration the quantity of facial stress, the best you wish to scale back or to develop the flexibility to be completely nonetheless that is attention-grabbing for those that try both to meditate or to study rest for insomnia and customarily with the ability to get to sleep shortly.

[01:08:49] Jeff: Yeah and sleep apnea briefly. Can you possibly can clarify what you’re engaged on now, you printed some movies about some new options not too long ago?

ZMax and sleep apnea detection

[01:08:59] Kurt: So, mainly folks some folks cease respiration whereas they’re sleeping and in some folks it’s actually harmful as a result of they’re simply going to suffocate and so those who have this drawback, they already find out about it, they know all the things about sleep labs they usually have a CPAP machine at residence.

However and I don’t assume I can add something to that dialog as a result of that’s actually you realize you want equipment that will help you breathe. There’re nevertheless many extra folks than these, which have that signs however not have the identical symptom however not as severe.

So, the truth is it may be latent and refined and never even be one thing that causes them to get up. In case you have been a ZMax with the nasal sensor for the entire evening you would possibly see that at sure factors you stopped respiration after which you possibly can see what occurred after that.

And you’ll say, okay did I get up or not? Now, let’s assume alike the overwhelming majority of individuals, it’s going to be a gentle factor, proper? So, you had an oxygen desaturation which means your blood oxygen stage for instance went from 93 to 88 and you then flip round. And the following epoch was nonetheless n2 or n3 in order that reveals you that you simply didn’t really get up.

Nevertheless, what you must do is put on it whilst you’re not sleeping and attempt to maintain your breath and wait till that quantity goes from 97, 90 no matter it’s to 88 and test how that feels. And also you’re going to be suffocating prefer it’s going to be actually disagreeable. I believe some individuals are not even going to have the ability to maintain their breath that lengthy.

So, that implies that whilst you’re attempting to be peaceable and sleep like a child, you’re nearly getting choked to demise, that may’t be good for you, proper? So, the appliance because the ZMax additionally does stimulation what we’re testing from now’s to intervene after you cease respiration however earlier than you might have the desaturation; as a result of it takes a while you realize the oxygen is an effective 90 X.

The blood is superb buffer for oxygen so, you possibly can maintain your breath for some time and also you don’t really feel something particular however it drops off rapidly after 15 seconds that precisely mirrors the quantity of oxygen, the tales within the blood that’s saved within the blood.

That implies that we’ve time to intercept an interruption in your respiration within the air move and earlier than you might have the desaturation, earlier than your blood oxygen really has time to go down by that a lot, we are able to intervene with a sound or vibration one thing that lets you snap out of it so to talk whether or not it’s shifting round maybe not even waking up, however anyway one thing that stops it.

And if we are able to cease it then what we are able to do is, for the those who have these issues however not extreme sufficient to get up or to require hospital remedy or to require CPAP machine or to truly cease these apneas from occurring. If we are able to try this it might translate into an enormously improved high quality of sleep as perceived when the individual wakes up.

There’s no method that eradicating how I inform you the quantity this explicit individual we have been taking a look at, they’d not less than 20 to 30 totally different and have the file I can present you if we do video subsequent time.

We had not less than 20 to 30 totally different episodes of almost choking to demise – 88 saturation all through the evening. Think about that we eliminated that, how a lot better he’s going to really feel within the morning, if his entire evening wasn’t spent suffocating.

[01:12:25] Jeff: Is a large drawback and there positively there’s masses and a great deal of room for enhancements in not simply diagnostics with remedy as nicely. So, it’s actually attention-grabbing.

Nicely, it’s been an enchanting dialog and we’ve acquired to carry this to a conclusion sadly however earlier than you go Kurtz can I get your ideas on the place you assume we may be in 10 20 30 years’ time, on the subject of sleep and its relationship with expertise?

The way forward for sleep is in biotechnology, not {hardware}

[01:12:57] Kurt: Proper, so, most individuals underestimate the progress that we’re going to make in biotech within the subsequent 10 years. I bear in mind after I first began utilizing computer systems and it was 13, 14 years outdated earlier than like 11 from the age of 11. and in the event you ask the common individual what’s a floppy disk how do you format it, how do you utilize a pc, mouse, they didn’t know.

So, I bear in mind an age wherein these things simply didn’t exist and in the present day you bought grannies on the bus discussing about whether or not 64 gigabytes is large enough or not. That has been the revolution in computing however the subsequent revolution is in biotech. And so, within the state of biotech in the present day, it’s like a tsunami of the horizon and it’s like seeing these large computer systems you realize as large as a room after which within the 70s and with the ability to forecast.

So, that implies that you realize and in 2018 we’re going to have the iPhone and however this that’s the identical factor that’s about to occur in biotech. So, it’s going to be one revolution after the opposite bang! I’m seeing life-changing issues and it’s if individuals are going to marvel the place the hell did that come from as a result of they didn’t comply with the analysis for the previous 10 20 years or 50 typically.

However and this stuff are going to be so, far more necessary than computing as a result of they really have an effect on your life, they have an effect on your well-being. So, psychological interventions for despair and naturally sleep being one of the crucial problematic issues nearly all people’s sleep-deprived. Now we have the pressing must sleep higher with much less hours.

In fact, it could be higher if we might sleep extra hours higher however individuals are realistically not going to go for that so, we’re going to attempt to sleep much less hours higher and get the identical quantity of restfulness and gradual we’re going to have capsules.

[01:14:41] Jeff: Proper, okay. I used to be going to say, give some particular issues that individuals can visualize.

[01:14:46] Kurt: So, for instance there may be a biomimetic molecule that act in the identical method because the hormones that drive you to start to go to sleep with. So, the data that we’ve to achieve in these fields with which we’re doing slowly however as we get higher and higher screening strategies much more, is to determine precisely what’s the pathway.

As a result of perhaps the primary iterations you’re going to should take a cocktail of six issues however know, what I’m saying cocktail it sounds actually unhealthy proper since you assume cocktail of medication.

Progressing in biotech means you can you possibly can interface with the human physique with out all that every one the uncomfortable side effects. So, you wouldn’t be capable of have medicines that don’t have any uncomfortable side effects the place you initially perhaps take a cocktail of six various things that recreate the identical actual metabolic processes that lead you to go to sleep naturally and sleep nicely.

However then perhaps the following quotation isn’t going to be six anymore since you discovered the one precursor the indicators the entire system like perhaps with one thing within the retina that’s triggered by blue gentle. And now, we’ve a factor that may go there are some antagonists that may go there and block that and you are taking it at 6:00 p.m. after which by the point it’s 9:00 p.m. your physique thinks you’ve been in whole darkness for 3 hours, okay?

So, that sort of revolution I believe is inevitable so, I don’t assume it’s essentially going to be tech however maybe tech has an enormous function in creating the biotech. As a result of we want higher and higher methods of with the ability to look contained in the mind and we want methods of accumulating extra information from extra folks which additionally means retaining the expertise quite simple to make use of.

So, a bunch of various textual content they was once actually invasive aren’t shifting to be extra wearable and so, if earlier than there was a PSG now there’s ZMax maybe in some unspecified time in the future sooner or later goes to be one thing that you simply put contained in the contact lens after which finally it’s going to be like one of many totally different modules that you simply put inside your steady mind implant library; the place it’s simply going to obtain it to your PC whilst you’re sleeping and it doesn’t even want electrodes at that time. Nicely, you’ll hear about all of that in your podcast when it occurs.

[01:16:52] Jeff: Sure, precisely thanks a lot if individuals are curious about what ZMax can do over there a person, whether or not they’re affiliated to some analysis establishment you realize, how do they pay money for ZMax?

[01:17:02] Kurt: nicely initially I believe they’re going to have a bunch of various questions in regards to the electrodes, in regards to the information they usually can get solutions to all of that on my web site which is hypnodyneCorp.com hypno you realize like hypnosis however it really means sleeping grace. Okay, hypnodynecorp.com and there you possibly can obtain the viewer for the ZMax information and you may as well obtain pattern information recordsdata.

You have got information recordsdata and NPSG recordsdata from the identical individual the identical evening acquired concurrently you can obtain so, you possibly can examine for your self what does the ZMax information seem like versus what does the PSG information seem like and you can obtain information recordsdata that embrace auto scoring so; you possibly can see the scoring high quality.

And customarily talking any questions you might need together with; movies of the software program, video tutorials for lucid dreaming and biofeedback, all the things is on the location with hyperlinks to YouTube. So, hopefully that may reply all questions you might need.

[01:18:00] Jeff: That’s nice. Thanks so, a lot might actually recognize your time in the present day.

[01:18:03] Kurt: Thanks recognize it.